You must log in or register to comment.
I’m not surprised by this.
The general attitude around R4L is that it’s largely unneeded and for every 1 person actively working against the project, there are 10 saying either “waiting and seeing if it works is the right decision” or “if rust is so good they should prove it.”
So as a R4L developer you’re expected by the community to fight an uphill battle with basically no support on your side.
We will likely keep having developers on that project continue to burn out and leave until the entire thing collapses unless the decision is made ahead of time to cancel the project.
Every time I read any news about Rust for Linux I leave disappointed by the entire kernel community.
I am with you on that last line. However, I remain more hopeful.
As long as Linus keeps merging code, Rust will eventually win. And by win I just mean that it will overcome the haters sufficiently to render their resistance futile.
There is only so much support infrastructure needed before large chunks of Rust can be committed ( at least on the driver side ). We are not so far away from that. Once real code starts to appear the “show me” will drive adoption elsewhere.
Take this case, it all started over a bit of code. The subsystem maintainer refuses to take it. But it does not require any changes to existing code. It just has to be merged.
Linus can take it directly. If he does that, the Rust folks can start to use it. The sub-system maintainer will lose in the end.
At some point, the battle will be lost by those trying to block Rust.
It all depends on Linus. We will see.
I read the “thin blue line” email and it seems… reasonable and sensible? And seeing how he is so appaled by it makes me question his judgement a bit.
I usually see “thin blue line” (and the flag) used by reactionaries, racists, and white nationalists. Especially since BLM. Don’t know what sort of politics Ts’o has, other than he’s probably not an anarchist (ACAB!), but I guess (benefit of the doubt and all) he could be some ignorant lib with a head full of copaganda, so getting out the code of conduct for racist dogwhistles might be a bit premature.
It comes from The Thin Red Line, which is about some Scottish regiment standing up to a Russian cavalry charge. Even if you don’t know that, it seems quite obviously a military metaphor, and that indicates a militaristic view of what policing should be like, veneration of the police as heroes, and total ignorance about what the police actually are and do.
Linux
A few months ago (Oct 18 2024) Linus and his sidekick signing the kernel, not only admitted they were going to comply with US Stat.Dep. doctrine and remove developers (on long term good standing) on the basis of nationality and national origin of the employers, they exploded into a rant, clearly admitting to being nationalist and in distrorting history to fit their rhetoric. In greenwashing nationalism (you can say racism underlying this national hate speech) into the base of most open and free code, nationalism now is not free as in beer it is free as in “freedom”? This is as large of a difference as socialism and ethno-socialism.
The linux community … the end user … DOESN’T give a damn, only wants the latest and badest of development in his gaming machine.
Once you make a slip and slide exception you can’t prevent any more in the future. First will be “justified nationalism”, then “not so justified racism”, then “sexism”, then will be the gas chambers for anyone who forks anything away from Führera (Fedora + Führer).
If using any kernel later than 10 18 2024 I see it as the nationalist/racist fork. I expect the original to continue by developers who don’t use race/ethnicity/gender as a basis for accepting/rejecting contributors.
Are you referring to the time they kicked out a bunch of people employed by the companies associated with the Russian government and that are under direct sanctions for supporting the war?
People are not under sanctions, and no linux developer worked for the Russian government, and since when has a war affected who works on what open source project. There are wars all over the place all the damn time …
I am not talking about the sanctions, I am talking about the additional remarks on how nationalist and racist both the leaders of the project appeared to be from their statements.
Companies are under sanctions. Companies that are connected to the Russian government. Government that is actively wages a terrible unjust war. A war that shouldn’t happen.
People who are working in those companies were banned for the duration of them working for and supporting companies that are under sanctions.
If that’s a problem for you you are being obtuse either on purpose or, I hope, because you’re underinformed.This war was forced into Russia due to the blocking and surrounding it with NATO bases clearly against it, and by trying to block and substitute its primary exports to EU.
The violent overthrow of the then democratic government in Ukraine, the arming, training, and directing a Neo-Nazi para-military unit to take over, after forcing half the political parties in being illegal, had nothing to do with Russia. If there is someone underinformed, confused, and lacking historical facts it is not me, and better change your arrogant tone if you seriously want to discuss something and not just throw propaganda mud.
.ml
Oh, here it is. I was waiting when the pretense will go away. 15 рублей получишь в кассе.
I’m not sure why they feel it’s Linus’ responsibility to make Rust happen in the kernel. I’m certainly not happy someone is being harassed, but none of this is the fault of the Linux Foundation or the people that have been working on the kernel for decades.
If Rust is going to happen, then it’ll happen. Or fork it and make a Rust Linux with blackjack and hookers, and boy, will everyone left behind feel silly that they didn’t jump on the bandwagon. But nobody has to make your dreams their focus or even interact with it if they don’t want to. And these social media outbursts aren’t accomplishing what they think they’re accomplishing.
If Rust is going to happen, then it’ll happen.
How can it happen if individual maintainers say they’ll do everything in their power to keep Rust out of the kernel? There’s fundamentally no way forward. The R4L devs already gave every commitment they could, but some maintainers fundamentally don’t want it.
And before anyone brings it up: no, the maintainers weren’t asked to touch Rust code or not break Rust code or anything else.
It will happen via it being better, and being shown to be better. And it will take time to unseat 30 years of C.
Not if they’re being prevented from showing to be better by C devs who, literally, “will do everything [they] can do to stop this”.
Nobody is trying to unseat 30 years of C.
Nobody prevents anyone from maintaining their own tree, thereby proving it works.
And yes, Rust is trying to replace C, in the kernel. Let’s start off by being honest here, k?
Nobody prevents anyone from maintaining their own tree, thereby proving it works.
Yet the Linux project officially OK’d the R4L experiment, so why does this stuff still have to be kept out-of-tree?
And yes, Rust is trying to replace C, in the kernel.
No, Rust is not trying to replace C in the kernel.
Let’s start off by being honest here, k?
Sure, why don’t you give it a try?
Yes, it’s been ok’d. That means it’s ok to go in, once proven.
So, R4L peeps need to figure out how to convince maintainers that is works.
So, go do it?
How do you convince a maintainer that NACKs a PR outside his subsystem while explicitly saying:
I will do everything I can do to stop this
Please explain how one can convince such an individual.
If we are going to be honest, let’s not be misleading.
Nobody is looking to replace C in the kernel just to switch out the language. This is not a “rewrite it in Rust” initiative.
What the R4L folks want is to be able to write “new” code in Rust and for that code to call into the C parts of the kernel in an idiomatic way (idiomatic for Rust). So they need to create Rust interfaces (which they, the R4L side, are doing). This whole controversy is over such an example.
At this point, we are talking about platform specific drivers.
Now, new kernel code is written all the time. Sometimes newer designs replace older code that did something similar. So yes, in the future, that new code may be written in Rust and replace older code that was written in C. This will be a better design replacing an inferior one, not a language rewrite for its own sake.
Core kernel code is not getting written in Rust for a while though I do not think. For one thing, Rust does not have broad enough architecture support (platforms). Perhaps if a Rust compiler as part of GCC reaches maturity, we could start to see Rust in the core.
That is not what is being talked about right now though. So, it is not a reasonable objection to current activity.
If R4L authors want to use Rust so badly, then still:
Maintain your own tree! Let’s see how simple and clean these interfaces are over the longer haul.
They will get mainlined if they are technically superior.
I doubt you care but others may want to know that you just hit the nail on the head. Just not the way you think.
All the Rust folks want is for “technically superior” solutions to be accepted on their merits. The exact problem is that some influential Linux folks have decided that “technically superior” is not the benchmark.
Take the exact case that has led to the current debate. The maintainer said explicitly that he will NEVER accept Rust. It was NOT a technical argument. It was a purely political one.
In the Ted Tso debacle. a high profile Rust contributor quite Linux with the explicit explanation that the best technical solutions were being rejected and that the C folks were only interested in political arguments instead of technical ones.
If it was true that “technically superior” solutions were being accepted, the R4L team would be busy building those instead of arguing.
It was merged into mainline, in 6.1, over a year ago.
why they feel it’s Linus’ responsibility to make Rust happen in the kernel
who does? are you talking about marcan? because as far as i can see, what they’re asking for is for linus to make a stance and actually say whether R4L is a thing they want or not. because linus’ attitude so far has been “let’s wait and see” which hasn’t been all that helpful, as said in the blog post.
“Let’s wait and C”.
I’m not placing blame on the Linux Foundation, Linus, or anyone else for that matter. However, I believe that if Linus has publicly endorsed the use of Rust in the kernel, that decision is already largely set in motion. On the other hand, if the community collectively opposes the integration of Rust with C and no action is taken to address these problems, and everyone say no, then there is little to no reason to make the initial statement.
Much of the work being produced by Rust developers seems to struggle, often because it’s not made in C and because of maintainers saying “No I don’t want any rust code near my C code”.
I recognize that there are various technical factors influencing this decision, but ultimately it was the creator’s choice to support it.
Isn’t it reasonable for a maintainer to say “no rust here” when they don’t know rust, don’t want to learn it, and have decades of experience in C, and are maintaining that part of the system
Yes.
But that’s not what’s happening here. The guy who said no is not the maintainer of the rust code, and is not expected to touch the rust code at all.
stalkers who harassed and attacked me and my family
Wtf is wrong with these people?
Isn’t this the guy who got called out for trying to use social media brigading to force Linux kernel rust patches through? There’s a good chance those stalkers are fictional.
If you are replying with “isn’t this the guy” it means you didn’t bother to read the post, which also removes the merits of you questioning if what he is claiming is fiction or not.
But people on HN provided context and it indeed seem he was stalked and harassed, but through his VTuber persona and there was even a GDocs document with the details.
Edit: His VTuber persona is Asahi Lina
which also removes the merits of you questioning if what he is claiming is fiction or not
yet you claim marcan is lina with zero proof?
That’s really too bad… They are a super talented developer and they were doing something really cool, and making great progress too.
But if they were doing Asahi Linux for fun as a hobby, and if it isn’t fun anymore for a variety of reasons, then you really can’t blame them.
I’m not sure if there is a “right” or “wrong” here, as this is just one person’s side of the story that acknowledges, but mostly glosses over, the possibility that they made mistakes or behaved badly at times too.
But I can absolutely understand the basic concept of burning out because you don’t think your hard work is being appreciated, because people are making hard things even harder for you, or because users on the internet let their excitement about a thing push them too far into being entitled.
Hopefully Marcan can find some time to relax and do fun and rewarding things with their time.
But if they were doing Asahi Linux for fun as a hobby, and if it isn’t fun anymore for a variety of reasons, then you really can’t blame them.
I have 0 knowledge about this project, so my statement here is just a general statement.
But if a developer collects donations for promising something, then this is not just “for fun”, but they do have a moral obligation to try doing a good job.
It seems they overfullfilled their obligations (but all I know about it, are the words of the developer). So, as said above, this is a general statement.
edit: lol you guys are funny, but maybe read my comment. I talked about “doing his best” and about “things they promised”. You really think it is okay to say “I will try project A, I need donations” and then go on a holiday with the donated money and do nothing else? Do you thing this attitude will get people to donate anything?
Donations do not obligate anyone to do anything. It’s a donation, not pay. They should be done out of appreciation for someone’s time and effort, or to help support any potential work the project decides to do. But never with the expectation that you’re owed something back for donating.
You’re probably right from a legal perspective, but the difference between “donation” and “salary” is pretty murky in this context.
If this person was given a grant or funding via a kickstarter or something I would agree with the obligation idea, but donations are exactly that, a voluntary gift to the dev for the work they have done so far and may continue to do in the future. There are no “moral obligations” to continue the project.
