Here’s the problem with sweeping statements on the Internet like the one you just did - you never know who you’re talking to.
You have no clue how hilarious your comment reads from the perspective of someone who’s worked in IT for the past 20 years. :D
Here’s the difference between Linux and Windows TODAY (that’s a CRITICAL point) - the average user gets the OS installed, fires it up and just uses it. If there’s a problem, a reboot will fix it 99% of the time. For that 1% there’s a bajillion different forums where they’ll find help.
Now, Linux? You install it, fire it up, and it runs without issues. Or it doesn’t! You use an app, and it works - or it doesn’t! You start searching for solutions online and find that the issue you’ve had has been resolved but on a different distro, things look different on yours and you have no clue how to proceed.
Windows is not a perfect OS, but it’s as good as it gets (next to MacOS) in terms of “I’m John, this is my first computer, I just learned how to log in and now I want to have some fun”. Linux is FAR from that, still.
Empirically, you are getting Windows and Linux mixed up
Also more end user devices are Linux than Windows
Linux is ideal for people who don’t want to spend all day troubleshooting and not getting anywhere. It’s for people who want things to just work without extra effort
Empirically, you are getting Windows and Linux mixed up
I’m honestly not sure you understand what “empirically” means… But I might be wrong! Please elaborate!
Also more end user devices are Linux than Windows
Yes, nowadays especially, when people are trying to “stick it to the US”. Which doesn’t change the fact that most of these will return to Windows within 6 months, and even with them it’s still an insignificant minority compared to the hegemony of Windows and MacOS.
Linux is ideal for people who don’t want to spend all day troubleshooting and not getting anywhere
I’m sorry, WHAT?
It’s for people who want things to just work without extra effort
Through my own experiences not just what I’ve read
Right. You can’t say “empirically [based on my hands-on experience] YOU are getting things mixed up”. That’s not how reality works.
It’s like saying: “I just ate great breakfast, therefore world hunger doesn’t exist”.
ESPECIALLY with things as fragmented as Linux.
Google and Valve are US companies so I don’t think people are sticking it to the US when they use their products
More and more people are getting interested in /e/OS, GrapheneOS, and LineageOS, turning away from Google. Valve is always considered to be “that one good company” so they’re in a pretty good spot, but even with that, more people are showing interest in GOG than before.
Install and forget, the only issue I’ve had that isn’t a 5 minute fix is a broken pipe error on updates that doesn’t interfere with anything.
I’m really glad you had a great experience with Linux, truly. Now go and read my first comment in this thread to see the other side of the fence.
Have you tried either?
See above.
Windows is always blue screening, black screening, or having apps freeze
When was the last time you tried Windows? 20 years ago? 15 years ago? Because “always blue screening” suggests something like that.
Windows 10 and 11 are on par with MacOS in terms of stability, mate.
Could that be because he’s had fewer issues with Windows and hasn’t had a need to troubleshoot it?
Windows 11 is a shitty version of Windows, but it’s not Windows ME or Vista. It sucks because of the arbitrary CPU and TPM requirements, plus having AI forced into a user’s desktop. Not to mention Microsoft is dragging its feet fixing performance issues in Explorer.
It’s still very stable on good hardware with stable drivers. Point out the actual shit parts of Windows, not lazy callbacks to the days of Windows 98.
Could that be because he’s had fewer issues with Windows and hasn’t had a need to troubleshoot it?
It’s actually the opposite. Worked in IT for 20 years, had to troubleshoot every conceivable issue with Windows.
Here’s the difference: 90% of the time, once you’ve installed the OS, it’s smooth sailing*. If it’s not, reboot, and it will be fine. For the fringe cases, just search online to find help.
This last bit is what kills Linux as “user-friendly OS” - you have one distro, but solutions you find are for five different distros and each one looks and feels slightly differently, so things are in different places.
EDIT:
* I should’ve added: TODAY. It used to be VERY different, but these days? It’s mostly “fire and forget”.
I’ve also spent my fair share of time in IT. I can’t recall any common issue with the reliability of Windows in the enterprise. Single user issues that originally appeared to be an OS problem later turned out to be caused by hardware. Usually hard disks, though I did find a bad stick of RAM once.
The vast majority of issues I typically saw were application related, usually industry specific software. What I did come to hate was industry applications written to run on the Java Runtime environment. Especially when a user needed several different apps which were not all compatible with a common JRE version. There’s DLL hell, dependency hell, and then there’s JRE hell.
So you can afford 128GB of ram, a motherboard that can support that, a processor that can address that… and you’re running a 2080ti?
It’s such an odd configuration I wouldn’t be surprised if the Nvidia driver were causing the issue. Contrary to the concept of a “unified driver,” the code for your GPU probably hasn’t been touched by nvidia in a while. Either that, or maybe you’ve got all that hardware, but you’re running Windows 8 or something else odd.
You seem to be confused. We’re talking about an “OS for the masses”. What you’re talking about is so far beyond the “high end for the top tier enthusiasts” that it’s not even funny.
Randomly change registry settings, delete files, install software on the advice of random Internet people/LLMs until the software works or the randomware kicks in.
Thank god you’ve never had to touch a Linux terminal, clearly a fate worse than death.
Randomly change registry settings, delete files, install software on the advice of random Internet people/LLMs until the software works or the randomware kicks in.
See? Here’s your problem. You’re doing random stuff without understanding what it does or even without a guide. Try that on Linux and tell me how well your OS works. :)
In general, seems like you’ve been sheltered from Windows for the past, I don’t know, 15 years? In terms of reliability and stability, 10 and 11 are on par with MacOS.
Looks fairly similar to what you would do on Linux. Change registry to config file (unless you’re using Gnome, then it’s both). You’re right though, on Windows, people don’t usually have paragraph long commands to paste into the terminal to fix some issue. Instead, on Windows you have Microsoft support posts where a “Microsoft Community Support” non-employee pastes non-helpful boilerplate tech support copypasta which are somewhat adjacent to the user’s issue.
Linux at least gives us useful logging and the software packages have documentation that is accessible without paying for a Microsoft Support contract.
The Linux community support can actually fix your problems without boilerplate copypasta and doesn’t cost anything but you’ll get the customer service that you pay for.
You do know I made that very point about how Microsoft’s support knowledgebase is garbage these days, don’t you?
Linux Community support can help you fix your issue. Once greybeards become jaded in a given community though, you see more and more “read the man pages”… which would be helpful if not for the fact that some of them are as concise as a freight train.
Mate, don’t take it the wrong way, but you’re living in a fantasy world if you think an average user has any semblance of idea as to where logs are or how to read them.
The Linux community support can actually fix your problems without boilerplate copypasta
LOL, nice one! :D
I’ve read “just recompile the kernel” together with “just switch to [distro_x]” more times than I can count to… :D
I’m not talking about the average user. I’m talking about how the software is useful to me and other people like me.
The average user needs to be coached on how to double click or to open a PDF. Holding a conversation about any software or technical topic from the point of view of an average user is a fools errand.
I’ve read “just recompile the kernel” together with “just switch to [distro_x]” more times than I can count to… :D
Sure, ignorant people exist. If someone posts about a Windows problem they get the same generic advice as well.
The difference is that even given access to an expert, in Windows you’re limited in how much information that you can get about the problem. If you’re lucky you get an error message that matches an article in a knowledge base which will contain some rote process that allegedly solves the problem. You usually don’t get logs and you have no ability to debug (because the source code is proprietary). If that fails you can open a support ticket and hope, eventually, that someone competent can solve your problem.
Given access to an expert in Linux, you can trace the problem down to a specific line of code in a specific library and know the name and email of the person who wrote it.
In both cases, if an average user was involved they’d immediately give up and post on Reddit about how their computer is dumb.
The OP is about Linux replacing Windows. That means: “Linux for the masses”. THAT means: average users having to deal with all the Linux shit.
The average user needs to be coached on how to double click or to open a PDF. Holding a conversation about any software or technical topic from the point of view of an average user is a fools errand.
Correct. Which is why the issues I listed in my comment make Linux impossible for the average user.
The difference is that even given access to an expert
THAT is also part of the problem. If I’m a noob but know someone who “works in IT” and “uses Windows”, they’ll be able to help me.
If I’m a noob but know someone who “works in IT” and “uses Linux”, I might get help, but I might be shit out of luck. Maybe my issues is unique to KDE and they use Gnome or Xfce? Maybe I have a problem with my Ubuntu, but they’ve been sitting on Fedora for the past 20 years?
if an average user was involved they’d immediately give up and post on Reddit about how their computer is dumb.
That’s false. And, again, I’m saying this as someone who’s worked in IT for the past 20 years - if you have a problem with Windows (nowadays - this is critical), 90% of the time rebooting fixes it.
And sure, a lot of people post about how their computers are shit, because something happened, but the amount of people who can help in the case of Windows is just immeasurably larger than in the case of Linux - because of the massive fragmentation between DEs and distros.
Spoken like someone who hasn’t had to troubleshoot Windows
Here’s the problem with sweeping statements on the Internet like the one you just did - you never know who you’re talking to.
You have no clue how hilarious your comment reads from the perspective of someone who’s worked in IT for the past 20 years. :D
Here’s the difference between Linux and Windows TODAY (that’s a CRITICAL point) - the average user gets the OS installed, fires it up and just uses it. If there’s a problem, a reboot will fix it 99% of the time. For that 1% there’s a bajillion different forums where they’ll find help.
Now, Linux? You install it, fire it up, and it runs without issues. Or it doesn’t! You use an app, and it works - or it doesn’t! You start searching for solutions online and find that the issue you’ve had has been resolved but on a different distro, things look different on yours and you have no clue how to proceed.
Windows is not a perfect OS, but it’s as good as it gets (next to MacOS) in terms of “I’m John, this is my first computer, I just learned how to log in and now I want to have some fun”. Linux is FAR from that, still.
Empirically, you are getting Windows and Linux mixed up
Also more end user devices are Linux than Windows
Linux is ideal for people who don’t want to spend all day troubleshooting and not getting anywhere. It’s for people who want things to just work without extra effort
Can’t compare to Mac personally
I’m honestly not sure you understand what “empirically” means… But I might be wrong! Please elaborate!
Yes, nowadays especially, when people are trying to “stick it to the US”. Which doesn’t change the fact that most of these will return to Windows within 6 months, and even with them it’s still an insignificant minority compared to the hegemony of Windows and MacOS.
I’m sorry, WHAT?
You have GOT TO be joking right now…
Through my own experiences not just what I’ve read. Constantly being asked to fix “Windows not working” and there never being any fixes found
Google and Valve are US companies so I don’t think people are sticking it to the US when they use their products
Install and forget, the only issue I’ve had that isn’t a 5 minute fix is a broken pipe error on updates that doesn’t interfere with anything.
Have you tried either? Windows is always blue screening, black screening, or having apps freeze
Right. You can’t say “empirically [based on my hands-on experience] YOU are getting things mixed up”. That’s not how reality works.
It’s like saying: “I just ate great breakfast, therefore world hunger doesn’t exist”.
ESPECIALLY with things as fragmented as Linux.
More and more people are getting interested in /e/OS, GrapheneOS, and LineageOS, turning away from Google. Valve is always considered to be “that one good company” so they’re in a pretty good spot, but even with that, more people are showing interest in GOG than before.
I’m really glad you had a great experience with Linux, truly. Now go and read my first comment in this thread to see the other side of the fence.
See above.
When was the last time you tried Windows? 20 years ago? 15 years ago? Because “always blue screening” suggests something like that.
Windows 10 and 11 are on par with MacOS in terms of stability, mate.
It’s support for others, how else do I empirically test it?
Hold on… You’re saying that you supported other people using Linux, and NEVER encountered ANY issues?
I don’t believe you. :)
The most difficult case was someone trapped in VIM
Could that be because he’s had fewer issues with Windows and hasn’t had a need to troubleshoot it?
Windows 11 is a shitty version of Windows, but it’s not Windows ME or Vista. It sucks because of the arbitrary CPU and TPM requirements, plus having AI forced into a user’s desktop. Not to mention Microsoft is dragging its feet fixing performance issues in Explorer.
It’s still very stable on good hardware with stable drivers. Point out the actual shit parts of Windows, not lazy callbacks to the days of Windows 98.
It’s actually the opposite. Worked in IT for 20 years, had to troubleshoot every conceivable issue with Windows.
Here’s the difference: 90% of the time, once you’ve installed the OS, it’s smooth sailing*. If it’s not, reboot, and it will be fine. For the fringe cases, just search online to find help.
This last bit is what kills Linux as “user-friendly OS” - you have one distro, but solutions you find are for five different distros and each one looks and feels slightly differently, so things are in different places.
EDIT:
* I should’ve added: TODAY. It used to be VERY different, but these days? It’s mostly “fire and forget”.
I’ve also spent my fair share of time in IT. I can’t recall any common issue with the reliability of Windows in the enterprise. Single user issues that originally appeared to be an OS problem later turned out to be caused by hardware. Usually hard disks, though I did find a bad stick of RAM once.
The vast majority of issues I typically saw were application related, usually industry specific software. What I did come to hate was industry applications written to run on the Java Runtime environment. Especially when a user needed several different apps which were not all compatible with a common JRE version. There’s DLL hell, dependency hell, and then there’s JRE hell.
1000% this!
2080 ti and 128gb of ram - it is definitely not stable and unlike Linux isn’t ready out of the box
So you can afford 128GB of ram, a motherboard that can support that, a processor that can address that… and you’re running a 2080ti?
It’s such an odd configuration I wouldn’t be surprised if the Nvidia driver were causing the issue. Contrary to the concept of a “unified driver,” the code for your GPU probably hasn’t been touched by nvidia in a while. Either that, or maybe you’ve got all that hardware, but you’re running Windows 8 or something else odd.
W10/11
And yes the gpu needs an upgrade, but I don’t have a server in need of it yet so it stays in my personal computer
And on Linux it handles everything I need
You seem to be confused. We’re talking about an “OS for the masses”. What you’re talking about is so far beyond the “high end for the top tier enthusiasts” that it’s not even funny.
If Windows doesn’t work on that, then it’s not for the masses
Sure, mate. 128 GB of RAM is clearly “for the masses”. :D
To quote the classic: “the best thing about Linux is the community. The worst thing about Linux is the community”.
Did you even read what I said?
If Windows needs more than 128gb of ram then it’s not for the masses because the masses have less than that
What are you trying to argue here, mate?
We’re talking about OSes for the average user. You said that Windows with 128 GB is “not stable and not ready out of the box, unlike Linux”.
Then you said “if it doesn’t work on that, then it’s not for the masses”.
So what exactly is your point?
You just said it
Steps to troubleshoot Windows:
See? Here’s your problem. You’re doing random stuff without understanding what it does or even without a guide. Try that on Linux and tell me how well your OS works. :)
In general, seems like you’ve been sheltered from Windows for the past, I don’t know, 15 years? In terms of reliability and stability, 10 and 11 are on par with MacOS.
Sfc /scannow
Dism something
Are the most common troubleshooting steps and that’s in command prompt
If that doesn’t work then registry
If that doesn’t work reinstall the whole OS
If that doesn’t work just accept that x not working is part of the experience
Looks fairly similar to what you would do on Linux. Change registry to config file (unless you’re using Gnome, then it’s both). You’re right though, on Windows, people don’t usually have paragraph long commands to paste into the terminal to fix some issue. Instead, on Windows you have Microsoft support posts where a “Microsoft Community Support” non-employee pastes non-helpful boilerplate tech support copypasta which are somewhat adjacent to the user’s issue.
Linux at least gives us useful logging and the software packages have documentation that is accessible without paying for a Microsoft Support contract.
The Linux community support can actually fix your problems without boilerplate copypasta and doesn’t cost anything but you’ll get the customer service that you pay for.
Event Manager.
You do know I made that very point about how Microsoft’s support knowledgebase is garbage these days, don’t you?
Linux Community support can help you fix your issue. Once greybeards become jaded in a given community though, you see more and more “read the man pages”… which would be helpful if not for the fact that some of them are as concise as a freight train.
Mate, don’t take it the wrong way, but you’re living in a fantasy world if you think an average user has any semblance of idea as to where logs are or how to read them.
LOL, nice one! :D
I’ve read “just recompile the kernel” together with “just switch to [distro_x]” more times than I can count to… :D
I’m not talking about the average user. I’m talking about how the software is useful to me and other people like me.
The average user needs to be coached on how to double click or to open a PDF. Holding a conversation about any software or technical topic from the point of view of an average user is a fools errand.
Sure, ignorant people exist. If someone posts about a Windows problem they get the same generic advice as well.
The difference is that even given access to an expert, in Windows you’re limited in how much information that you can get about the problem. If you’re lucky you get an error message that matches an article in a knowledge base which will contain some rote process that allegedly solves the problem. You usually don’t get logs and you have no ability to debug (because the source code is proprietary). If that fails you can open a support ticket and hope, eventually, that someone competent can solve your problem.
Given access to an expert in Linux, you can trace the problem down to a specific line of code in a specific library and know the name and email of the person who wrote it.
In both cases, if an average user was involved they’d immediately give up and post on Reddit about how their computer is dumb.
But… Everyone else is?
The OP is about Linux replacing Windows. That means: “Linux for the masses”. THAT means: average users having to deal with all the Linux shit.
Correct. Which is why the issues I listed in my comment make Linux impossible for the average user.
THAT is also part of the problem. If I’m a noob but know someone who “works in IT” and “uses Windows”, they’ll be able to help me.
If I’m a noob but know someone who “works in IT” and “uses Linux”, I might get help, but I might be shit out of luck. Maybe my issues is unique to KDE and they use Gnome or Xfce? Maybe I have a problem with my Ubuntu, but they’ve been sitting on Fedora for the past 20 years?
That’s false. And, again, I’m saying this as someone who’s worked in IT for the past 20 years - if you have a problem with Windows (nowadays - this is critical), 90% of the time rebooting fixes it.
And sure, a lot of people post about how their computers are shit, because something happened, but the amount of people who can help in the case of Windows is just immeasurably larger than in the case of Linux - because of the massive fragmentation between DEs and distros.
Yes, if you take memes as literal implemented public policy it can seem like a silly thing.
I’m not going to defend the position that every grandmother and office worker should dump Windows for Linux because it’s a dumb position.
I’m not sure why you would built an entire argument on top of that premise.
Rebooting Windows doesn’t remove the advertisement, data collection, AI integration or TPM requirements… which is driving people to switch to Linux.
We’re not talking about any of that.
No such thing exists.
And thank goodness for that! I like my devices secure and sound, thank you.
[citation needed]